FAQ's Takagi, Paloma, Eemax, Infinion, Stiebel tankless hot water heaters

Good answers to good questions about tankless hot water heaters here

Looking for any type of hot water heater? Read these questions and realistic answers first ....

For questions about the Low Energy Systems company (return policy etc.) please click anywhere in the image below.

Q: Tankless water heaters seem like a good idea for my home. I'm trying to understand how the gas version can heat the water on demand so quickly. Can you please explain? Thank you.

A: The tankless gas water heater has higher gas input ratings. The amount of gas used is related to the incoming water temperature and the volume of water moving through the heater. The burner modulates accordingly. As we have sold tankless for 25 years, we explain the heat exchange efficiency as follows:

The gas is passed through many finely calibrated orifices and then a stainless steel burner that mixes gas with air and distributes the flame over the complete expanse of the heat exchanger which is constructed as a copper fin tube heat exchanger with maximized copper surface area that allows maximum heat transfer efficiency. Big Btu's and efficient combustion yield excellent results.

When you think of a tank type water heater, think of primitive people sitting around a fire with a iron caldron suspended over the fire. They wait for the water to get hot.

Q: I've been looking into the Takagi Tankless Water Heaters  and think that the TK-1 may meet my needs, however, when I saw the Mobius I was wondering if that unit might not serve my needs better. We have the possibility of running three showers at once and I was wondering if the TK-1 would supply that need. Do you have any thoughts or ideas on this?

A: Lose the tank! After 25 years of selling tankless, I see no reason to cling to a technology that is radically inefficient. We are the only country on the planet that uses tanks. I always ask: Do you leave your car running all night for the morning drive to work? Why heat the water while you sleep? I am passionately against tanks. If tankless water heaters replaced tanks, we would greatly reduce our nation's gas consumption.

Where are you located, as to how cold is your incoming water? The T-K1 will allow 2 showers simultaneously forever. The T-M1 costs more than twice the T-K1, so maybe you could use two T-K1's and zone the hot water supply piping to different areas of your house. The T-M1 is technologically advanced with computer controls that allow up to 20 T-M1's to be installed with one control allowing this type of system to service large commercial applications.

We have sold many T-M1 units solo for applications like yours. Think it over, ask more questions as they arise and we are happy to help you make an intelligent decision. Tankless Water Heaters

Q: I am interested in a tankless system. Below is the response that I received from the Superintendent of City of Seattle. My house has 3 bathrooms, normal appliances i.e. washers and such. No hot tub. Will the Takagi T-K2 keep up? Thanks

"Tankless hot water heaters, also sometimes called 'demand' water heaters, heat water instantly as a household needs it when they turn on a tap. As a consequence, this type of water heater doesn't need a storage tank. This kind of water heater can save energy because it doesn't have to keep 50 gallons of water hot all the time."

A: Most gas tank type water heaters lose 6F degrees per hour because they have a flue sucking the btu's out of the stored hot water. Standby losses of gas tank type account for much more energy loss than an electric which is a sealed vessel, no flue.

I say visit www.gamanet.org and study the energy factors of tank type water heaters. This is a site sponsored by the folks that build the antique appliances that we all are familiar with. They explain everything in detail. I look at the energy factor as efficiency and I believe that they do not and can not compute the standby loss as a single person has greater standby loss (as they are seldom home using hot water) than a family of four. Therefore true efficiency is worse for smaller families than larger families with tanks. So I figure that the energy factors would be lower than published if standby losses were computed into the number.

Tankless Water Heaters  do NOT have standby losses and the Takagi T-K2 has a true energy factor of 0.82. As far as high energy usage when is use. The Takagi only uses the energy needed to raise the water temperature of the water you are flowing through the hot tap (the T-K2 does not go to full btu input to allow you to wash hands at a lav sink). If you lower the flow or have preheated water, then the energy used will be reduced. When the tap is closed, you use ZERO energy.

The tankless water heater is the standard outside the U.S. That is so because of higher energy costs outside the U.S. Why defend wasteful technology?

Q: Can you tell me the main difference between the TK1 and TK2? We have 4,000 sq. ft house, family of 5 with 3.5 bathrooms and have a 75 gallon standard gas heater now that I would like to replace with a tankless. Thanks for your time and consideration, Tom

A: The only benefit of the T-K1 over the T-K2 is that the T-K1 is lower priced by $200.

Here are the benefits of the T-K2 over the T-K1:

1. Low emissions NOX and CO. T-K2 Meets future standards that have been adopted and are currently in effect in CA and soon nationwide.

2. More btu's/hr +20,000 btus/hr more with the T-K2. Means more hot water.

3. Dip switches on T-K2 allow you four choices of temperature selection. T-K2 is factory set at 120F. T-K1 is factory set at 120F and the only way to make water hotter is to buy remote temperature controller. The T-K2 temp. choices are 105F, 112F, 120F, and 180F. Not great but as the wired remote controller includes diagnostic function, the T-K2 diagnostics include greater detail.

4. I saved the BIGGIE for last, The T-K2 has a built in temperature sensor that is linked to an automatic water flow valve that regulates water flow so that the selected temp. is delivered. Example: You are filling a tub at max flow, T-K1 water will not be hot, you will have to manually slow flow at tap, T-K2 slows the flow automatically so that you get the temp. that you selected. This temp. sensing comes in handy with recirc. Applications like radiant heating and instant hot at each tap if desired.

Tankless Water Heaters

Q: We are looking for one unit for the 2 baths, d/w, washer, and a single unit for master bath (farthest from existing tank)

1. What would pricing be on two appropriate units?

2. Do you have recommended installers in our area (Boca Raton, FL)

3. What is estimated installation for these two units (one would require running 60 amp line 70 feet to main bath for single unit)

Thanks Rick

A: ... the largest electric tankless will allow the equivalent of two showers at the same time. We do not tell you which unit is the most appropriate because that decision is yours. We describe the units that we offer at Tankless Water Heaters  .

Largest electric tankless is the EEMAX Series three 28kw, model 280T requiring 150 amps dedicated (three 50 amp breakers) service at 220v...The 280T is capable of two showers at once. Series Two is the next size EEMAX at 19kw, 100 amps, 220v. The model 190T is on our site at $373.00. The 190T will allow one major shower + lav with entering water above 60F. Maybe two low flow showers.

The Acutemp is another brand more quality, more expensive that can make any size.

From here our site is complete with prices and details. All heaters are smaller capacity than the above heaters none are suitable for 110v. The Powerstream 12kw is next, Stiebel Eltron (GREAT VALUE) and German made.

We do not have an installer to name nor do we know installation cost as it would totally depend on what you choose and what your current electric system has for capacity.

Neil

Q: I use propane to fuel my heat for my home. It is a 3/4" line. The source is a 500 gallon propane tank. Will this work for the TK-2 or the TK-1? Secondly, is the installation something a plumber can do without any experience with these types of systems?

A: Yes the 3/4" will work for the T-K1 or T-K2 but please consult Tankless Water Heaters  click on CATALOG then miscellaneous and sizing tables and look at LP Gas and determine the length of the run to the water heater and the total btu's of all other appliances drawing from this 3/4" line. Call you propane seller. Any handyman can do the install.

Neil

Q: I am rehabbing a house on the river 3br 2bath we have propane heat. What size and type would I need? either propane or electric.

A: Definitely Propane. Current models with NO PILOT are: INFINION 105,000 BTU/hour and the Takagi models (TK1 & TK2). Infinion uses two D cells no 110v power required. The Takagi offers two models both use LPG with 110v spark and power venting, can install outdoor in warmer climates. The Infinion can deliver one shower at a time and the Takagi units can do two showers at once. Please visit Tankless Water Heaters . Where are you located, how cold is your incoming water temp and how is your water pressure? Y

Q: Why is this unit (the Takagi T-K1) higher than Aquastar?

A: The Takagi T-K1 is rated at 165,000 btu/hour, includes a high end thermostatic control, 110v spark ignition system and a built-in power vent system. Japanese made with an electronic flow switch instead of a rubber diaphragm which requires regular maintenance...

If you want value and you can be satisfied by a tankless water heater like the Aquastar, then please visit us again at Tankless Water Heaters  and check out the INFINIION. The INFINION is comparable to the Aquastar 125B or 125X and sells for $389 and $469.

Q: I have had a Paloma tankless water heater in my home for almost 18 years, It is now getting tired. I am planning on purchasing a new heater. It's compact, It's out of the way, It's great. I have the Ph6 model now and plan on upgrading to the PH12M model and was wondering how much of a change I would have to make as far as moving pipes, and overall installation. Thank You

A: Great that you did find us. We are Paloma's largest reseller in the U.S. Please visit Tankless Water Heaters  and either check specs, prices, etc. Regarding your specific question about moving to the PH12MD. The vent size is 5" diameter, one inch greater than the PH6D. The gas line requires that you deliver about 90k btu/hour usually 1/2" line will work fine but we have gas piping sizing tables on our site. I know that the decision making is not easy and we can help by calling (800)873-3507, ext. 4, 7, or 1.

We also stock parts and if you want to troubleshoot your tired heater, we take pride in our 25 years of Paloma tech experience and might have the right vitamin to make the old PH6D perk up.

Neil

Q: Dear Stiebel Eltron, Does either model use 115 vac @ 30amps, and we would like to know if it would be alright to take 20 minute showers.

A: At one gallon per minute water flow, you will get a 20F degree rise in water temp. The water heater never runs out but 110v units are more for washing hands at a flow rate of 0.5 gal/min. Either think LP Gas or 220v. Please visit Tankless Water Heaters  and read the specifications on the various models or call us at (800)873-3507, ext. 1, 4, or 7.

Neil

Q: I am looking into buying a tankless water heater for my home. I am remodeling and will have a 2 bath , kitchen, and washroom. I am looking at the Stiebel Eltron DHC 10-2. Is this right for me?

A: The DHC 10-2 requires 220v, and 50 amps dedicated service. You can get about 2 gal/min with a 33F degree rise from whatever your cold water temp. is. At 1 gal/min you will get about a 66F degree rise. Not much capacity unless you move up to a double unit or an EEMAX 190T. Our gas units can install outdoors and have much more capacity. Please visit Tankless Water Heaters for details. Electric units are basically the same in performance, more KW more hot water.

KW = amps x volts. Neil

Q: We are going to replace the current tank model hot water heaters in three of our homes. Can you please advise on the appropriate models and provide price quotes for the following: In all cases the showers, washing machine and dishwasher run at the same time frequently so please use your expertise to help us keep the cold shower an infrequent occurrence.

Home 1: 3 bathrooms w/showers, dishwasher and washing machine. This is a permanent residence.

Home 2: 2 bathrooms w/showers, dishwasher and washing machine. This is a seasonal residence and we MUST BE ABLE TO EASILY DRAIN THE WATER OUT OF THE HEATER SO IT DOES NOT FREEZE WHEN THE HOUSE IS NOT BEING USED.

Home 3: 1 bathroom - small washing machine and no dishwasher. MUST BE ABLE TO EASILY DRAIN THE WATER OUT OF THE HEATER SO IT DOES NOT FREEZE WHEN THE HOUSE IS NOT BEING USED. Please advise us on models you would recommend for these type homes

A: Thank you for your interest. We attempt to educate and then the decision is yours. The Takagi T-K2 is the best heater we can recommend for home #1. Keep in mind that this, the largest residential heater we offer, will normally only provide TWO showers or two major uses at once. Tankless heaters will perform according to the specs if they are installed according to the installation instructions. Be particularly attentive to gas line sizing. Tankless heaters NEVER run out as they are instantly heating the water as it passes through the heater. You can get more details and view gas piping tables at Tankless Water Heaters

Heaters for home #2 & 3. Tankless water heaters only hold about 12oz. of water. Easy to drain BUT residual water can freeze if air isn't introduced to blow out the residual water. Paloma PH12MD and PH24MD have multiple drain plugs and usually if you blow in some air after draining, you will not have problems. Also if you arrive at these homes and you sense that the temp is below freezing, do not introduce fresh water until the room warms up and you can see a drop liquid water at the drain plug holes. Leave the plugs out when you leave the house. Hope this helps.

Q: ... I have a question regarding the TK-1 (Takagi gas power water heater): ... I'd like to know, how "loud" is the heater when it kicks in (active heat production)? You can tell me in decibels. I want to plan WHERE it should be located in our small bungalow (Houston, TX) - i.e.. I don't want to locate it near a bedroom if your product "screams". Please respond as I am trying to decide on this TYPE of water heater vs. typical tank gas water heater. Thank you

A: I do not know the noise level in dB's but I know the heater and it is quiet. You can install outdoors. Keep in mind that you can NOT install the T-K1 in sleeping rooms or bathrooms. Noise complaints have not been encountered. Neil

Q: ... I currently have a 15 year old 1,414,000 BTU boiler roofside with a 300 gallon tank inside running the hot water for my coin op laundry. I desperately need to reclaim the space inside where the tank is located for business expansion and ... it seems like a good time to rid myself of this boiler. ... As far as I know my current boiler receives water at 90 psi in the 2'' copper. I am concerned about the pressure changing when I decrease pipe size from 2" to 3/4" and the ability of the T-M1 to receive this pressure. Is there anyway that you can help me determine how many of these units I need to accommodate my hot water usage. ... it seems T-M1 can handle any water usage simply by adding more units connected to a computer control. Does the Max flow of 9.6 ever change and if so when and why? Please respond via Email or call

A: The flow from the T-M1 is determined by the outlet temp. requested and the inlet temp. and the demand. For example, I believe a 70F degree rise will yield a flow of about 5.5 gal/min. How many units required without tank? Estimate maximum flow rate that you are sizing for and divide by about 6 gal/min. If you had 40 single load machines and we allocate 2 gal/min per machine and peak load is 28 machines, then we need 56 gal/min and about 10 T-M1's will yield 60 gal/min. We do not reduce from 2" to 3/4". We would manifold the units and they would come on and go off as the demand increased and decreased. Gas line may have to be upsized for potential draw even though that would seldom be reached. Neil

Q: I am looking for a Tankless Water Heaters  that can supply 3 gpm at 120 degrees.. I'd prefer a propane based unit, but am flexible.. Any suggestions?

A: What is cold water temp? Propane is good. Do you have 110v power? That would determine whether we recommend the Takagi or Paloma. Takagi has 110v spark ignition system. If you had 50F degree cold, then I would recommend the Paloma PH24MDP or the Takagi T-K1 LPG. Tankless Water Heaters

Q: I am renovating a small house. There are three "guest" bedrooms upstairs, one bedroom downstairs. The basement floods periodically. The electric tank water heater gets damaged each time, no surprise. I am tired of this. I am wondering how a tankless water heater can help me... My questions are what would be the best way to provide hot water for the kitchen, downstairs shower and upstairs shower without using the small basement which floods. What is the size of units I might use? The downstairs bathroom is very small ... Our power choice is electric. There is no gas or propane available. Thank you for your help.

A: Electric units are small 12" x 12" x 4" and they hang on a wall. You will need 220v service and 100 to 150 amps of dedicated service. 100 amps gets you one comfortable shower at a time and never run out and 150 amps of service will allow two showers at once. If you visit Tankless Water Heaters  and click on water heaters, then the EEMAX series two, you can get specs

Q: Takagi T-K2: I do not see specs as to what areas or how cold the environment could be installed outside. If in Wash, DC, could this be installed outside or only areas such as Florida?

A: The T-K2 is freeze protected down to 14F degrees. Of course the plumbing would freeze at below 32F if not protected. We install outdoors in many areas where lowest temp. is 20F.

Q: I am interested in an electric water heater for my RV. Will one run everything? (tub, sink and kitchen sink) Which model would be recommended for this application?

A: The Stiebel-Eltrons (DHC and DHC-E) are the best values we offer. Do you have 220v available and how many amps are available? With this info we can help you size the heater.

Q: I was about to buy a Takagi T-K2 tankless water heater, but just before I went to pick it up, someone introduced me to the Rinnai Continuum 2532FFU. The Rinnai has a flow rate of 8.5 GPM with an efficiency factor of 87% vs. the T-K2 at 6.9 GPM with 83% efficiency. Before I make a final decision on which to buy, please provide me with a comparison of how the T-K2 compares to the Rinnai Continuum 2532FFU tankless water heater?

A: Getting manufacturers to standardize their data submissions would clear the view on product comparisons. The T-K2 is the same efficiency as the Rinnai. Normal T-K2 efficiency is 85%, and if Rinnai says "as high as 87%", I would doubt that normal operating efficiency on the Rinnai is higher than the T-K2.

The T-K2 has 5,000 btu/hour HIGHER rated input than the 2532FFU. If you are looking for a 70F degree rise the T-K2 will allow flow of about 4.0 gpm. In my 25 years experience, there is NO WAY that the 2532 will generate more hot water with LESS btu's. Neither heater will make hot water at their MAX flow rate. Deceiving but in tropical climates where the water enters at 70F+ you can live with a 40F degree temperature rise. The T-K2 is designed to accept preheated solar water and will not cycle on at all if the water already meets the selected set point.

Takagi T-K2 is better because it has all the Rinnai features plus:

1. It can wall mount or sit on a non combustible floor.

2. It can install indoors or outdoors.

3. The T-K2 meets current emissions standards, Rinnai does not claim to meet these new standards.

4. Here is one that puzzles me: The T-K2 weights 25 pounds more than the 2532FFU. To embellish this thought, the Takagi T-K2 has an automatic water control valve that senses incoming water and the desired set point temperature that you have selected and delivers a constant outlet temperature.

5. The Takagi T-K2 is most widely sold and represented, whereas the Rinnai is only sold through Rinnai trained people and there are few compared to the total universe of plumbers.

In general, Takagi is a much more consumer friendly Japanese company. I know this from experience. Thanks for the opportunity to compete and educate.

Tankless Water Heaters